There's a Lesson in Here Somewhere
There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere is a podcast hosted by Jamie Serino and Carlos Arcila that features exceptional people that have compelling stories to tell. Whether it’s a unique perspective, an act of kindness, an inspirational achievement, a hardship overcome, or bearing witness to a captivating event, these are stories that must be heard, and from which we can draw important lessons.
There's a Lesson in Here Somewhere
How Do Purpose-Driven Organizations Move People from Inspiration to Action?
In this episode, I speak with Julie Davitz, Founder and CEO of Plus Media Solutions to explore how purpose-driven organizations can turn awareness of an issue into measurable action. As the media landscape becomes increasingly fragmented, and with intense competition for people’s attention, it’s more important than ever to engage audiences at moments when they are most passionate about a cause and move them to take action.
Join us as we explore how Plus Media Solutions is pioneering a new approach to this challenge. Discover how engaging storytelling and dynamic content and experiences can be timed in such a way that awareness and inspiration is transformed into deeper connections with organizations and their missions, and ultimately into action. Whether you're with a nonprofit organization or a purpose-driven brand, this episode will provide you with fresh insights into how to engage your audience in today’s media environment.
Learn more about Plus Media Solutions: https://www.plusmedia.solutions/
You're listening to. There's a Lesson in here, Somewhere, a podcast featuring compelling conversations with exceptional people. Whether it's an inspirational achievement, a hardship overcome or simply a unique perspective, these are stories we can all learn from. Here are your hosts, Jamie Serino and Carlos Arcila.
Jamie:Hello and welcome. This is. There's a Lesson in here Somewhere. I'm Jamie Serino and I'm here today with Julie Davids, who's the founder of Plus Media Solutions, and we're going to learn all about the amazing work that they do. And we're going to learn all about the amazing work that they do and Julie started her career and spent most of her career working in impact, on both the for-profit side and the nonprofit side, and we'll hear a little bit more about that. And through Julie's travels, she realized that there were some problems with getting people to do stuff. Getting people to do stuff and so how can we get people to donate and spend time and volunteer and actually follow through on the things that they want to do? And that will be a big part of the conversation today motivating and then getting people to do the things that they actually want to do. That will support causes that they believe in. So, julie, I'll turn it over to you for more complete introduction and if you could go into, you know, some of your career, that would be great.
Julie:Sure, thanks so much, jamie. Really fun to be here chatting with you. You're absolutely right. I mean my through line has been around positive social change and started way back when in San Francisco with a family a Silicon Valley family who sold their company and wanted to do good. So they carved out $100 million of the profit and they turned it over to me and said, okay, figure it out. So that was a great opportunity to build a private family foundation and over 12 years we really made a dent or an impact in the California literacy program and in fact we developed a program that is now part of the curriculum in California schools, a take-home library program. So that was really my first foray into formal kind of nonprofit impact.
Julie:From there I went to work with a Nobel laureate at the University of California, san Francisco, and helped him build the Institute for Neurodegenerative Diseases, and that was. Even though I am not a scientist, I certainly learned a lot about neurodegenerative diseases and really opened my eyes to our healthcare system all over the world, because neurodegenerative diseases are not geographically specific. And then from there I moved to New York City and had my own consulting firm working with ultra high net worth corporations, foundations, individuals who really wanted to make a difference, both with their for-profit capital regular dollars to invest and then charitable dollars to invest and that then led me to being head of impact for North America at BNP Paribas Bank of the West. Bnp is the seventh or eighth largest global bank in the world and that was an amazing platform to think about how to make change at scale. But all of those pieces kind of fell into place and has made up Plus Media, so it's been an exciting journey.
Jamie:Nice, and so you know, what some people don't realize is that it actually can be difficult to give away money, right, and you discover that you got dropped in there and you're like why is it so difficult to give away money?
Julie:Oh my gosh. Yes, you know, for so many reasons. I mean, most people probably are familiar with Dan Pallotta's great book called Uncharitable and there's a film out now on that. But it is complicated for human reasons. You know there are a lot of egos involved in philanthropy. And it's complicated for systemic reasons because these problems, most of the problems that philanthropy looks at, you know poverty, healthcare, education these are so deep and so tangled and so ingrained. And lastly, I would say you know the US in particular. We don't have a good social safety net here. So there's a lot of pressure on philanthropy to fill that gap, to fill that gap, whereas, you know, the programs that I've seen working in Europe and elsewhere are much more robust and feel much more effective in terms of systems change. So, yes, it is a complicated sector.
Jamie:And there was something you said earlier too that reminded me of the UN Sustainable Development Goals and I wonder, something you said earlier too that reminded me of the UN sustainable development goals, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, because I feel like they kind of were stepping in and maybe trying to like get corporations to step up a little bit, to sort of step in there and and if they define these goals and these sort of columns where the money could go, then it made it a little bit easier, you know. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that.
Julie:Yeah, I'm a big fan of the UN SDGs and, in fact, everything that Plus Media does internally. We frame around the UN Sustainable Development Goals. We can talk about that later, but since they've been established, it definitely gives clarity to corporations, to brands, to foundations and hopefully to individuals as well. I think of them as a roadmap or framework, or, some people say, goalposts. Sometimes when I talk about them in public, I still have to explain what they are. They're not a sexually transmitted disease.
Julie:You know they are the roadmap for a healthier people and planet, and they're very, very smart and very effective. It works for corporations because it gives these businesses something to hang on to. And that's not to say that you've got to hit all of those 17 and all of the numerous points under each of the 17. The numerous points under each of the 17. But what's helpful is to say, okay, I'm a brand. Let's just say I produce, you know, soft drinks, so that involves water. So you might want to focus on what can I do around SDG you know, I believe it five, and I should know that off the top of my head around clean water, and that's a great just starting point. And then measure against that framework and that really helps the corporation know where they're going and it also helps them communicate to their constituents, their shareholders, how they're doing on this.
Jamie:That's a really important aspect of it the measurement and also, I think, stopping like the shotgun blast approach, and you've probably been, you know, in the field enough to see the movement away from that. Right, Could you talk a little bit about like, because I remember being at corporations and it was like, yeah, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. And then I remember the shift and people would get annoyed, like, can you sponsor this? Like, no, no, Like, why no? Because we're putting all the money here to have more of an impact. And then it makes sense for people. But you know it's a hard pill to swallow at first, Right? So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that shift.
Julie:Yeah, it is hard for those great NGOs and nonprofits who are out there looking for financial support, are looking for financial support. But, as someone who's worked on both sides of that line, it is really important to take into account alignment and focus. So for corporations, whether or not they have a foundation, they have to put their stake in the ground. That shotgun effect doesn't work. And when you can align the corporate product, the corporate set of values, the corporate initiatives, with something that's really clear, like one or more of the UN SDGs, that just helps everyone row in the same direction and it ends up being a unifier both internally and externally for that corporation and it helps them put up some kind of fence really around.
Julie:There's a limited amount of dollars. I mean, even if you're the biggest corporation in the world, you can't just keep granting out money to things that sound good. It's got to be more strategic. So I think I really lean on the alignment as the most important, so that the brand matches the cause. I heard a very appropriate story at a conference on sustainable brands recently and it was given by the head of sustainability at Mars, and Mars produces M&Ms, but they had a campaign that linked M&Ms to wind power.
Julie:Hmm it fell terribly flat because do you I mean, when you look at M&Ms, when you're eating in M&Ms is there any alignment with wind power at all? So you know, that campaign went nowhere and they really learned about alignment and I'm I'm all for that.
Jamie:Yeah, and because, as you were talking there, I was thinking too about some of the brands that really stand out, because they do focus on certain things, like Patagonia. There's some obvious ones, right. So when there is a company maybe where it's less obvious, do you have any advice for them, even like BNP? I mean, you could probably talk about I don't know, like microfinance and you could. You know, there's probably a bunch of things there, but what would you say to a company where it isn't quite as obvious, as we use a lot of water or we're with the environment, or we're in education, you know?
Julie:Mm-hmm. You know, at least from my experience because I'm always looking at things from an impact lens I find those threads. I mean it is. I have yet to come across a company, a client, who doesn't have, you know, something that they can align with.
Jamie:Yeah.
Julie:Whether it's regenerative ag or green chemicals or reforestation or you know it's, it's there. If, if they really are interested, it's there and the great thing is we know that when you move towards that, that impact or purpose or sustainability, whatever you want to call it it is good for business. I mean, that's the bottom line. It's good internally, it's good externally, it's certainly good long-term for your ROI and we really we feel strongly that by holding people to account and then communicating the best sustainability story and measuring that that leads to increased ROI.
Jamie:Yeah, and there are studies even that show that it can even move the stock price. So those studies that are out there now. So how have you seen the measurement of this change? Because I feel like I've seen that change a lot too. You know, between knowing where to put the dollars and the resources. Sometimes these things are hard to measure, right. These. You know you're funding something and sometimes it's pretty obvious, but other times it's not so. So what are your thoughts on that?
Julie:So measurement is a huge reason of why I launched Part Plus Media and here's why you touched on that. For example, let's just take films, any kind of content video, documentary, mainstream TV, all of that Throw it into one bucket. There's a lot of time and effort and money that go into most of that production. Right, and a lot of I'd say a large percentage of that content bucket has to do with some kind of social impact. It tells some story, it's highlighting an issue or topic. Some story. It's highlighting an issue or topic. It's uncovering maybe a really uncomfortable challenge that we have in the world. So all of that money and all of that time goes into telling that story. And then what happens?
Julie:I mean we're left. And those content producers for years have thought well, the audience, you know they can go off and they can. They can do what they want to do. And then they measure the impact of their story by eyeballs or likes and shares when the fact is that doesn't move the needle on any of those issues.
Julie:So that's one reason why I started Plus Media. I feel that measurement is so important to affecting social change. If we can measure what's resonating with audiences, what's resonating with consumers, what are people willing to do, what are people willing to learn, and then track that, then we can know what's working. Is our message working? Are consumers making smarter choices because of that sustainability communication? We need to know that we can't just keep putting out these ads and videos and producing these events and expecting people to make the change. We have to give them the tools to make change and we need to measure that change.
Jamie:Yeah, that's great because it definitely goes a level deeper. So, I think, because it was difficult to measure, for a while no one was really measuring much, and then people started to measure and then, I think, you know, because it was difficult to measure, for a while no one was really measuring much, and then people started to measure and then they, I think they felt satisfied with okay, impressions, eyeballs like shares, you know, signing up for the newsletter, things like that, and that. That is great, you know, and you're you're getting eyeballs and you're getting people. Maybe you are inspiring people, eyeballs and you're getting people. Maybe you are inspiring people. But then the action. So you're talking about going a level deeper to that action. And it's funny you mentioned the documentaries and stuff, because I saw a documentary about the food industry and I'm like maybe I'll become a vegan now after watching that. I don't know if I will.
Jamie:I'm not going to say I will, but but if I did, then it was because of that. That documentary Right and so, or right now the documentary is making me walk around talking about it, which is helpful, but what is it really? Maybe I'll donate more money to certain things, Maybe I will cut down on eating meat or chicken or whatever, I don't know. But you're bringing up a great point. So could you talk more about arriving at that? And then how do you really get in there and know like, okay, this person did that because they consume that piece of content.
Julie:Right, that is a little bit of a scary answer, but I will respond. But I would say that to your comment about maybe you'll become a vegan or maybe you'll donate, it's the maybe that we are focused on. So when you're watching that documentary on, you know the food waste or food systems. If at the moment that you're interested, you had a plus media menu that you could learn more about what it means to be vegan, maybe get some vegan recipes, maybe there's a one click donation, maybe there's a podcast that you could listen to All of that catching you at that moment of inspiration so that you will decide to learn more, you will take an action. And then from there to your question about how do you track and know what people are doing after they have expressed interest and watched a film or attended an event, or even at point of purchase with a brand. So today's technology has developed exponentially and if people think that they are not being tracked, they're being really naive.
Jamie:Yeah.
Julie:It just, it is part of our life. So what Plus Media does is we. We track that behavior. It's anonymous, we don't collect any personal information at all, but we can follow that viewer. If that viewer decides oh, I want to listen to that podcast on how to become vegan, or I want to download those recipes, or I'll sign a petition, or I will donate, or you name it, through our tech tags we track that behavior and we can tell then the content producer or the brand or the event producer what people are actually doing when they are watching or listening to their messaging.
Jamie:Yeah, yeah, I mean you're just taking, well, not to just you're just doing this or just doing that, but you're taking. You know what's happening in the marketing world and and you know, sort of using it for good, right, um and and so cause you know what. What in the marketing world? People will say it takes seven, eight or nine touches to get someone to make a buying decision, especially if it's something expensive or especially if it's like business to business and things like that. And there's a great like marketing cartoon where it sort of shows this and this guy's driving and he sees a billboard about a sneaker. He opens a magazine. There's a sneaker he's on. He looks on TV and the star is wearing the sneaker, you know, and he keeps seeing the sneaker. Then he sees the sneaker on his computer and he clicks on it and he buys it.
Jamie:And then in the last frame you see the people in the boardroom and they're like so this is why we need to put more money into digital and they're forgetting about all those other touches, right? And so the same thing is happening with a person, you know, and it might even be a bigger hurdle to get someone to donate. Or you're talking about changing people's behavior, changing habits right Eating habits or whatever they might be and so you have to sort of pull them along, like you're not going to go from the first touch to the buying decision, from the first touch to the to the buying decision. So you bring them along, just as you were describing maybe a podcast next, or maybe an article, you know, or or something else and keep going, keep going, keep going until they're ready. So I think it's, it's great. So, um, do you have, like you know, maybe an example or something of of how that works?
Julie:something of how that works. Yeah, we describe that as the ladder or the continuum of engagement, and that's really where our expertise comes in, on the front end of our work with a client. So I would start by describing the process and I'll give you an example. So what we know, the actions, that or the messaging that requires consumers to take an action and that will lead to behavior change, has to be very, very specific, and there's so much research on this. Someone will take an action if they understand that it's relevant to them, it's contextual to them, it affects their health, their wealth, their personal world.
Julie:So when we get a project for example, we're working on a film right now that is talking about the importance of health and nutrition for inner city youth Great film called Generation Growth because the curation on the front end is alignment with the story and giving the viewers opportunities to take action, to learn more or buy something or do something that makes sense to them, and it can be anything from buy a kit to start your own garden at home to downloading toolkits, to bringing this how to duplicate this work and bring it to your local school, set up a screening, and we're always changing the opportunities that we offer to align with that content so that it matches the audience that's watching the content, so it's always relevant, it's always contextual and that brings really high engagement rates. So you're not just plugging in a hashtag donate $5 to whatever. I have to understand why this is important to me. Yes, I'm predisposed to the topic because I've watched the film, but I want to know why I should take that next step and that's what we do.
Jamie:That's great. And so when an organization wants to engage with you, they'll say, okay, I've got this film or I have this campaign and I'm about to launch it, and then that's when they engage with you and you sort of lay out all those steps. Okay, can you tell me a little bit more about that, that process, the planning.
Julie:Exactly. So, you know, I'd say the bulk of our work has fallen. Even though we serve all of those 17 UN SDGs that we talked about, it tends to fall in the environmental group. If someone is doing a campaign around something related to climate or environment, we will first understand what are their goals, what are their KPIs, their key performance indicators. So, taking those and looking at what they're going to be using for their messaging is it video? Is it social channels? Is it, you know, events that could be all of the above Then how can we translate that into concrete actions for the audience in learn and act opportunities, and those learn and act opportunities need to be measurable.
Julie:So we do all of that work, the research and curation, and we come up with various menus that are appropriate for all of these different demographics. If they're looking to target Gen Z on social, we've got a menu for that. If they're looking to activate audiences at a big event, we have that. So it's all very personalized, it's a very personal engagement experience. And then, of course, on the back end, we're measuring all of that user behavior so that the campaign knows what's working. Is our message really getting out? Are people activating um towards the goals that that we have set out. If they're not, let's figure out why and and switch things up yeah, that's great.
Jamie:so you, you mentioned, um, a lot of environmental causes and stuff, um, so, because I wanted to ask you a little bit about you. You know some trends and stuff, so that's, those are the types of organizations that are coming to you more often. You feel like is is, do you? I mean, is it just cause maybe word of mouth and and in your services, or are people more in tune with we need to do something about the environment? Yeah, cause in tune with we need to do something about the environment? Yeah, because what I will say is, anecdotally, my oldest son's in third grade and they had to work on a project and every kid they were in pairs, every single pair did something about the environment.
Jamie:It was amazing. It was so amazing they were allowed to do anything. Just had to be you're gonna fix a problem, that's out there. That was it. Everyone did something on the environment. Now, sure, they were probably influencing each other, but it was really interesting to see that. That's what the outcome was there. So, yeah, so are you seeing? You're just seeing more organizations turning their attention to that?
Julie:I do, I do, I think so. I think there are a couple of things at play. We just happen to be working on a number of films that touch on some in climate or environmental issue. I mean, we worked on Extrapolations, which was on Apple TV, an episodic climate film series, and there's some really interesting ones coming up.
Julie:I think the plethora of focus content production around climate and environmental issues shows that awareness raising really might not be as important any longer. What is in your third grade example is perfect. What's really important is getting people doing something, and that's really where my frustration has been in that great, we've got the awareness raising covered. Climate change is a problem. What are we going to do about it? And that's where these films are saying oh yeah, we need to get people doing something after we motivate them and inspire them with our content. Same with events, and I'd say the same goes for brands, because if the brand is, you know, committed to sustainability, to recycle, reuse, repair, all of those great things, then communicate it to your consumer and use it for, you know, marketing, because it's very positive and consumers respond to that.
Jamie:Yeah, so yeah, you were saying something in there you know about, we know, we know there's a problem and I was just reading an article about that and, you know, an environmental scientist was saying we don't. And it was a psychologist that was interviewed too and they were like, yeah, we don't think heaping more data onto this like there's a problem is going to help. More data onto this like there's a problem it's going to help, because we know, like and we keep hearing about it, but no one is. You don't say no one's doing anything, but it's, it's now. I think to that next step and you, you keep going there like what's the next step? What's the next step in this action taking? So have you seen any trends with, like you know, different generations?
Julie:Have you seen any trends with, like you know, different generations, you know, between wanting to become active or wanting to donate or wanting to take some sort of action? Yes, there are some pretty clear trends, and you mentioned donate. I think one of the biggest trends is away from donating. I think one of the biggest trends is away from donating, and that's a big reason why we work so hard on the curation, on the front end, when we're really thinking about what can people do around this issue. They don't always want to give money. Maybe they will further down the line, but they need to be convinced first that I'm comfortable with this. This makes sense to my life. I think that there's been too much emphasis placed on just donate, just give money and that's going to solve it. So one of the things that we really be laid there, I think, particularly for younger audiences and younger generations, they're willing to get involved, they're willing to volunteer, to do meetups, to do social campaigns, not necessarily donate right off the bat.
Jamie:Yeah, Well, that's probably good. I mean, of course the money is needed and maybe some people it's oh, I'll just donate money. But if people are willing to spend time and actually effort, then that's a whole other layer there, so maybe that's a good sign. Yeah, so besides so you talked a little bit about environment, you talked a little bit about education Are there any other? And especially with your organization being aligned with the SDGs, are there any other ones that you see a little bit more attention, you know, a little more focus on?
Julie:You know it's it's. It's interesting. I mean we very much expected to get involved with some organization this year around just promoting democracy. I mean we try and stay very centrist, we're not a political organization and I've been surprised that our system has not been used as yet around these, you know, democratic with a small d issues. It's something that has just struck us. Other than that, I mean homelessness, affordable housing has has been big.
Julie:Education is another really, really big one and we're very excited about. There's been legislation passed in the EU. It's called a digital product passport. It's called a digital product passport and every item that is sold in the EU in the coming years requires this DPP, this digital product passport, much more clearly to consumers and to move those consumers' dollars and hence behavior, to a better cycle of that circular economy system.
Julie:um that we're, we're looking towards. So, um, I think that's a big trend and a big topic that is coming up that hasn't gotten a lot of attention yet in the U S.
Jamie:Yeah, well, it's leading me to to think about, um, you know, just educating people, about a lot of people, including myself, don't realize the impact that they might have on on the environment, on the world, like that documentary about, about food. One fact that keeps sticking in my mind is that it was it said it takes, I think, 25 pounds of feed to get one pound out of the cow right, which is like so inefficient, like why would we do that? You know, and and so it's like you know, I mean I don't eat that much meat, but it just makes me wonder like, oh, maybe yeah, maybe that hamburger just isn't looking so good anymore.
Jamie:Yeah, yeah, um so well. Well then there's like local things you can do. So, just sticking with that example, I actually know a cattle farmer and then that feels a little better, but then I'm sure there's a bunch of other things, and so maybe embedded in that digital product would be like here's the pressure that this product puts on the environment.
Julie:you know, and then you know that and you then decide do I need that or not? So that's, that's a really good point, because then the question for that brand is do I want to communicate that to the customer. Do I feel proud about that? There's a way to you know. First of all, they're going to be regulated so that information is going to be out there. But you could also have a story that maybe that brand is really making an effort.
Jamie:Yeah.
Julie:And that's a good story too.
Jamie:Yeah, exactly Right. So it's like what you were saying earlier and you line up, you have this alignment between your efforts and there are I mean Walmart's, a good example of turning it around. Well, I don't know, I haven't looked at them in a while, but they were turning it around and, you know, becoming a little bit more aware. So you get companies and brands out there that maybe realize they get shown and then they change so that can happen.
Jamie:Going back to something you and I were talking about before we hit record here was the change even in just phrases that are used, and this happens in all industries and fields and stuff. But I think it's a little bit more emotional here, maybe, or the relationship between how you might think about something, or how a word or a phrase can become, you know, sullied in some way. You know, and there are people out there, I guess, maybe trying to do that, or maybe it happens by accident or whatever. But we were talking about like phrases, like social good and CSR, and and so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, because I think I'd like to learn a little bit more about that and I think it's an interesting topic of just language change and phrases and stuff and that. That, that whole journey, I guess that we've all taken.
Julie:Yeah, yeah, you know when I started out in in the, you know I use impact in a very broad sense. When I started out, you know there was philanthropy and there you know, charitable giving straight up, very clear and just the beginnings of socially responsible investing. Even though socially responsible investing has actually been around in the US for a very long time, it was started by actually a religious organization way back when. That's a whole nother story and at that time it was quite clear Either you made a charitable donation or you invested your dollars aligned with your values, and you were sure to lose money.
Jamie:Right.
Julie:And then everything changed. There became, you know, charity even became much more complicated because you have things like donor advised funds and in the donor advised funds and in your philanthropic endowment, if you have a foundation, you can invest that those dollars into for-profit investments, hopefully, that are also aligned with your values. But then social responsible investing, you know, just caught on fire and it became impact investing and values aligned investing and all of these things. We started to have CSR, corporate Social Responsibility in companies, and then out of that we got DE&I. Now we have heads of sustainability at most corporations and then, flowing out of that, we have a lot of chief creative officers, chief innovation officers and, for whatever reason, a lot of these titles became very problematic and political.
Julie:I think that when we started with socially responsible investing, it was clear that no one was making money and so that, unfortunately, that belief up. And then, on the philanthropic side, when you have a CSR officer, it's not just feel good, it's actually for the good of the company, which is directly tied to bottom line. It all becomes very touchy and when you know I think that we should just be looking at it. This is for the common good, it's for the good of a business. It's for the good of a cause. It's for the good of the employees. It's for the good of the employees. Language is constantly evolving and our approach to social good is constantly evolving. I would say it's great that ESG and the UN, sdgs and impact investing, I think, has become a part of more mainstream conversation.
Jamie:Yeah, I think it has. And yeah, I guess, like what I've seen at different companies is, I mean, now of course, there's a lot of awareness on employee well-being and, you know, mental health and stuff, and that gets sometimes tied into that as well. So it does seem to be ever changing. And I guess, how you end up defining yourself within the field. Maybe you do have to be careful, but there now are different perceptions of these, different acronyms and words and stuff, which is interesting how it all developed. So, julie, what is your website? So everyone knows where to go wwwplusmedia.
Julie:all lowercase one word dot solutions plus media solutions dot solutions.
Jamie:Plus media solutions Great, very easy Plus media solutions. Is there anything else that you feel like I didn't ask or you want to let everybody know?
Julie:I think you know. Going back to to really where we started stories are great. Stories make us human, we we love them. Stories are great Stories make us human, we love them, but they don't make change. People make change and what we've been missing is that bridge to give people tools to take action that feel right to them, and and then measuring what actually works. And then measuring what actually works. So it's not complicated, it just hasn't existed before. And when something's new, you know people have a lot of questions about it, but it's time for people to act on their interests and to act for the common good, and plus, media is just there to make it easy and measurable.
Jamie:That's well said. You're reminding me of like when you're at like a gala, you know, and you're there and you're feeling inspired, and then people start. There's the auction or who wants to donate more, and everyone starts, and you're, everyone starts and you're getting people when they feel passionate right, and that's the whole thing is that when you watch something, then you literally wake up the next day and sort of shrug your shoulders about it and go and not recycle that can or whatever, but when you have that passion you just saw this thing then, boom, you get hit with that next thing and keep that, keep on that path, and that's the key. And that is really a key thing, I think, when you're talking about, you know, impact and social good and whatnot, is that there are these moments of passion and they do become easily forgotten and and but when you can act on them and the thing is too like what you're doing, people want that, you know. They want that path. You're clearing a path for them. They'll take that path, they'll follow that passion, so that inaction is made and it's great.
Jamie:Well, julie, thank you for joining us. I learned a lot and I want to thank everyone for watching or listening and, uh, we'll see you next time great Take care.
